Wednesday, October 10, 2007

Evolution - It's Pretty Much Bunk

A week or so ago (from today October 3, 2007) I posted a myspace bulletin saying that the theory of Evolution as we know it is just that, a theory, and a broken one at that. It's weak, and it should have stopped being taught as fact by now. I decided to write this after coming across a few pro-evolution articles online, and I was frustrated that people are being misinformed.

Before I start I would like to say that these are not all my original ideas. This is kind of going to go like a research paper, where I quote from things. I'm actually taking most things from one source, but that source is heavily researched from many other sources. I'll provide notes in the end of what those sources are. I’m positive that I can show you that evolution as the popular theory taught as fact is wrong, and I’ll even be using Science and facts. So let's get to it then!

First of all I'd like to point out that most people are not Atheistic. This means that most people do not believe that everything evolved on it's own with no outside intelligent influence. How many is most? Well, only 12% of Americans believe that human beings evolved over millions of years with nothing like God in the picture.(1)

I'm sure everybody is familiar with being lied to. It's something that happens far too often. So you'll probably understand the saying that goes something like, "if you tell a lie often enough, eventually people will start to believe and accept it." This is precisely what has happened with evolution. And who are the ones telling us that evolution is fact? Well, it's the ones who we should be able to trust and believe about things like this, the scientists. Why would they do that though? A survey done in 1998 of "elite scientists... those who have been elected to the National Academy of Sciences.... [shows that] disbelief in supernatural theism among Academy members was over 90 percent, for biologists it was 95 percent." (2) This says that a huge percentage of the most influential scientists and biologists reject the thought of a supernatural intelligence as the guiding force behind the universe. Their philosophical beliefs tell them that life cannot have come from a Creator, so they cling to something else even when the evidence shows otherwise.

Evolutionists can't agree on one theory of evolution. Let's look at three top theories. First, Richard Dawkins of Cambridge University in England believes that evolution happened over a long period of time with random mutations in DNA and natural selection guiding things. The mutations in DNA are good for the organism and after so many lucky DNA changes, it becomes a new organism that's different from it's now extinct ancestors. This happens over millions of years with millions of genetic mutations. This is probably the most well known theory.
Steven Jay Gould of Harvard (now deceased) proposed that evolution happened very rapidly at times, and then did nothing for long periods. He did not take up the slow gradual process theory because he knew that the fossil records don't support it.
Frances Crick, a Nobel Prize winner (also deceased) had another theory. He knew that life could not just happen out of non-life (called abiogenesis) and so he thought that something from outer space came to earth and left something that seeded the beginning of evolution. This could have been something like space aliens that left bacteria behind on a visit to Earth.

Evolution is a popular term, but the brightest of its defenders can't agree on how it works. The reason many hold so tight to evolution is not based on scientific fact, it's based on something philosophical. Phillip E. Johnson has written a lot about this, and he observes that "the doctrine that some known process of evolution turned a protozoan into a human is a philosophical assumption, not something that can be confirmed by experiment or by historical studies of the fossil record."(3) An evolutionist has already closed themselves to any possibility that an outside super intelligent force was the cause of the origin of humans. This is not a scientific move, this is philosophical. Phillip Johnson wrote in another piece:
"Darwinists know that the mutation-selection mechanism can produce wings, eyes, and brains not because the mechanism can be observed to do anything of the kind, but because their guiding philosophy assures them that no other power is available to do the job. The absence from the cosmos of any Creator is therefore the essential starting point for Darwinism....As an explanation for how complex organism came into existence in the first place, it is pure philosophy."(4)

What about the question of how the world began? I don't have too much of a problem with the Big Bang theory, the only question is what caused it? How can all the matter and energy we have around us come from nothing? This idea violates the science that some put so much stock in for disproving a Creator. The First Law of Thermodynamics (conservation of energy) is widely accepted as one of the most secure basic laws of science. This law states that energy cannot be created or destroyed. "In any process, the total energy of the universe remains constant." So where in the nothingness of space before the Big Bang did the energy come from to start our world?
Even if we put aside the issue of how matter came into being, how did life come into the picture? How can living things come from non-living things? Life from non-life has never been observed. Nobody has been able to reproduce anything proving this theory. Where is the evidence that a primordial soup ever existed for us to rise out of? Well how about if we did start out as tiny organisms, how then did we (and everything else) evolve into hugely complex organisms? What would you say the statistical chance of their being a Creator is? 1 in what? 1 in a million? Hugh Ross, an Astrophysicist, shows the statistics of non life evolving into complex life:
"The problems of primordial soups are big, but bigger yet is the infeasibility of generating, without supernatural input, and enormous increase in complexity... Years ago, molecular biophysicist Harold Morowitz calculated... that if one were to take the simplest living cell and break every chemical bond within it, the odds that the cell would reassemble under ideal natural conditions (the best possible chemical environment) would be one chance in 10^100,000,000,000. Most of us cannot even begin to picture a speck of chances so remote.
With odds as remote as 1 in 10^100,000,000,000 the time scale issue becomes completely irrelevant. What does it matter if the earth has been around for ten seconds, ten thousand years, or ten billion years? The size of the universe is of no consequence either. If all the matter in the visible universe were converted into building blocks of life, and if assembly of these building blocks were attempted once a microsecond for the entire age of the universe, then instead of the odds being 1 in 10^100,000,000,000 they would be 1 in 10^99,999,999,916."(5)

Also, Cell Theory, a widely accepted theory in biology states that

1. All living things are made of cells

2. Cells come from other cells

3. Cells are the basic unit of structure of all living things

This theory backs up the fact that in our world, life cannot come from non-life. There must be something outside of the rules of our world that caused life.

Now here is where we get into some fun facts about fossils. First, I’d like to do a little defining though with the term “evolution.” There are two types of evolution, Macroevolution and Microevolution. Macroevolution is the widely known concept of organisms evolving into whole new species over long periods of time. Microevolution is small, limited changes in organisms as a result of adapting to their living conditions, making them a variation of their original animal type. Here’s a good example of this:

“The first time I was in Yellowstone National Park, a friend I was hiking with photographed what we believed to be a wolf. To our chagrin, we discovered later that it was only a coyote. Yellowstone coyotes are much larger and grayer than the small brown variety I often see in Southern California. The high mountains and cold temperatures of Yellowstone have resulted in a different variety of coyote.”(M)

So microevolution is small changes within a certain animal group, as opposed to changes into new animals. I have no problem with microevolution.

Now on to fossils. It’s generally agreed that the fossil record is an excellent way to identify animals/organisms from the past. Most people probably think that the fossil record supports macroevolution. It does not. Transitional fossils are fossils of organisms showing their gradual change into whatever new species they were to become. The fact is though, that these transitional fossils don’t exist. There have been some hoaxes with transitional fossils, but those have been disproved when they came under examination. Also, there are no in-between species of animals running around. Darwin himself noticed this and wrote about it in his book The Origin of Species. “First, why, if species have descended from other species by fine gradations, do we not everywhere see innumerable transitional forms? Why is not all nature in confusion, instead of the species being, as we see them, well defined?”(6) Darwin himself acknowledged the oddity of his theory in relation to reality.

If you still have trouble believing that scientists/biologists would stand behind evolution as fact, maybe this will help clear things up. It’s an interview done by George Caylor with a molecular biologist that wished to remain anonymous. The interview was for an article called “The Biologist,” that ran in February of 2000. “G” is the interviewer; “J” is the biologist.

G: “Do you believe that the information in the human DNA code evolved?”

J: “George, nobody I know in my profession believes it evolved. It was engineered by ‘genius beyond genius,’ and such information could not have been written any other way. The paper and ink did not write the book! Knowing what we know, it is ridiculous to think otherwise.”

G: “Have you ever stated that in a public lecture, or in any public writing?”

J: “No. I just say it evolved. To be a molecular biologist requires some to hold on to two insanities at all times. One, it would be insane to believe in evolution when you can see the truth for yourself. Two, it would be insane to say you don’t believe in evolution. All government work, research grants, papers, big college lectures—everything would stop. I’d be out of a job, or regulated to the outer fringes where I couldn't earn a decent living.”

G: ‘I hate to say it, but that sounds intellectually dishonest.”

J: “The work I do in genetic research is honorable. We will find the cures to many of mankind’s worst diseases. But in the meantime, we have to live with the ‘elephant in the living room’.”

G: “What elephant?”

J: “Creation design. It’s like an elephant in the living room. It moves around, takes up an enormous amount of space, loudly trumpets, bumps into us, knocks things over, eats a ton of hay, and smells like an elephant. And yet we have to swear it isn’t there!” (M)

Perhaps that sheds some light on why evolution is still a topic with so much support despite the evidence.

I had one final thing to include about the Second Law of Thermodynamics and how systems tend to become more chaotic if left alone, instead of more organized. I didn’t feel like I could present this point well enough for it to be effective, so I’ve left it out. Perhaps when I learn more I’ll throw it in to something else.

So do you think evolution is an airtight scientific fact? Or do you think more like I do, that it’s a broken, weak theory held to tightly by those who simply refuse to believe that there’s any chance of something bigger than our world behind our existence. The belief in evolution is a philosophical choice, not a result of scientific evidence.

As a friend reminded me, all the facts and scientific evidence in the world cannot convince somebody to believe something if they just refuse to believe it. Facts and science are great for proof to those who claim that only objective evidence will change their mind or views. The changed lives of Christians and their testimony are the more important evidence for God’s existence and what He can do in your life. People mess up, nobody is perfect. We can be redeemed and forgiven for everything, we can start new. Nothing is beyond God’s love. Love each other, love everyone.

Sources

M. “M” stands for master source. This is where almost all of my information came from. The information in this source came from many different places, which I listed below when I used those same sources. This source is a book called The Christian Combat Manual, by Dan Story. I wrote to the publisher of the book and got permission to use the information in it. It’s definitely a great book for instructing Christians on how to defend their faith.

1. Quoted in “Coral Ridge Ministries Launches Creation Outreach, Impact,

May 2004, p.5. A similar statistic from an earlier Gallup poll reports that “about fifty percent of Americans believe in creationism, forty percent in theistic evolution [God guided or, at least, initiated evolution], and ten percent in materialistic or Darwinian evolution.” Tony Carnes, Christianity Today, Nov. 15, 1999, 27.

2. Phillip E. Johnson, The Wedge of Truth; Splitting the Foundations of Naturalism (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2000), 86.

3. Phillip E. Johnson, Defeating Darwinism (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1997), 34-35.

4. Phillip E. Johnson, Darwin on Trial (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1991), 115.

5. Hugh Ross, The Creator and the Cosmos: How the Greatest Scientific Discoveries of the Century Reveal God (Colorado Springs, Navpress, 1993), 139-140.

6. Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species by Natural Selection or the Preservation of Favored Races in the Struggle for Life (New York: Random House), 124.

Note: I tried to keep my writing style fairly informal, as the internet tends to be. If you see any typos or things like that, feel free to point them out to me. Spell check doesn’t always find everything J. Being rude about it though will not make you any cooler. I promise.

21 comments:

  1. Okay heres my few problems with this article as it is very finely written and well cited i do not have very many problems with it. First of all great job you have proved that science has a political side, well duh as do religions look back to the middle ages Christianities laws on many topics was ever "evolving" into what we know it as now some changes to note were influenced by whoever was in power at that current time. Everything in this ass-driven world is based around politics and personal feelings. Secondly i would like to pretend that i dont believe in evolution for a second and pretend like you have persuaded me to change my views however all you have really accomplished is to tear my world apart i no longer believe in evolution but religion is just as bunk it evolves more than the theory of evolution itself i now live in a world where i cant believe in anything because it is all just as "bunk" (by the way "Bunk" is a fucking rediculous way to say wrong, false, or untrue i feel like an idiot using it). Your religion is where i first started maybe not "your" specific "doctrine" but your religion none-the-less and thats the only thing that pisses me off about this damn article i can accept the fact that most of the scientists working on this topic really arent devoted to it, and i can accept the idea that dawkins himself doesnt believe in evolution 100%, but adding at the end of your article that gods love is extended to all and he can forgive all is about the most rediculous line in this entire article. GOD is one of the most violent and cruel dictators of humanities accepted history where is he now to strike down the invalids and the non-believers when he was so tyrant about it in the past, i thought god was everlasting and unchanging. if this were true then where is his scorn now? in hell? is that where i will face my eternal damnation? all im saying as a friend if your going to attempt to admonish beliefs you should look at all sides of the polygonal belief system from the outside not from a single sided believers perspective because your religion is about as bunk if not more than the belief in evolution and yours has been a lie for over 2000 years.

    sincerly,
    Th Captain

    ReplyDelete
  2. @Joshua
    It becomes very obvious to me and everybody else that you're really stretching for insults when you have to say that a word I chose is stupid. Please be mature.

    You say that Christian "laws" were changed and influenced by whoever was in power at the time. Please back that up. If you made a mistake and were talking about Catholicism and not Christianity, then we can both disregard that comment.

    I'm not talking about religion as a whole here, I'm talking about Christianity. The "rules" of Christianity come from the Bible. If you mean to refute the validity of the Bible, please do so with proof. Please don't try to prove anything by just sending me a link to a website, do some research and present an argument.

    In response to me talking about God's love. Have you heard about the part in the Bible where God sent his only son to die as a sacrifice so that we could be forgiven? This is called grace/mercy. God Himself did not change, he changed the way he deals with us and our sins.

    When you say "strike down the invalids and the non-believers" i'll assume you mean "infidels", because an invalid is a sick person. Where or when has God always struck down every one who doesn't believe in him or is against him? There is record of God punishing in the Bible because God declared or revealed to some one that He was going to do such a thing. Does that mean God is incapable of dealing out punishment these days? I think not, but we don't have the knowledge from God that he intends to punish a person or people.

    I don't think I understand what you mean when you say "look at all sides of the polygonal belief system." I think you might again be trying to challenge more then just Christianity here, which I'm not interested in. God gave us the Bible to help us guide our lives, and a Christian belief system needs to be grounded in the Bible. That's where I'm coming from here.

    My main goal in this post was to disprove evolution. I'm glad you brought up some more things though. Do you believe evolution is fact now? If so, on what grounds?

    ReplyDelete
  3. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  4. watch?v=bldN-lbyqsE
    type that in after youtube.com. Your comment box doesn't let me post the full link for some reason.
    I suggest you watch this for evolution. Weather you beleive that we were originally created by a god or not evolution is something that does happen. In the same token, what proof do you have that god did create everything? Just because there is no proof that he didn't, doesn't mean he did. It goes both ways really.

    ReplyDelete
  5. @tony
    In the post, I made a difference between macroevolution and microevolution. Macroevolution is species evolving into other species, and microevolution is small changes within a species that aid in its survival. I don't deny microevolution, it does happen, but it doesn't produce new animals. The halibut didn't become a new animal, it adjusted to living conditions.

    Like I said before, my main goal was to disprove evolution, not to prove God. I'm planning on trying to effectively do that later.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Great job, Jarrod :)

    The problem is, as you stated, that for anyone to reject the idea of macroevolution would be to accept the idea of a Supreme Being...

    I think all you can do on this is put out the facts and pray that the Holy Spirit opens peoples' eyes to the truth.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Just because you disprove one theory doesn't make another true. It simply means that you have one less theory to choose from. What about saying that Odin or Zues created the world? What about the flying spaghetti monster?

    My problem with this is that perhaps you can disprove evolution but it doesn't effectively prove there is a god, or even if there is that the one you choose is the correct one.

    I would like you to also view http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com/
    Watch the video on the jug of milk, or any others after that for that matter. He effectively disproves quite a few things.

    ReplyDelete
  8. @tony
    I put it in my response to Josh but I should have put it in the main post: please don't just give me a link to some website or video and expect me to figure everything out for you. Look into it yourself and present an argument. I don't have all the time in the world, my homework is already suffering a bit :)

    Take what information you think is important, and present something.

    In regards to zeus, odin, and the flying spaghetti monster; those "theories" are not true because there is no evidence to support them. There *is* evidence for Christianity and the existence of God. Like I keep having to say, I wasn't aiming to prove God with this post. Maybe i'll have to try to get another post out soon to cover something like this since it keeps being brought up.

    What I want to know, is if you still believe everything evolved from non-living chemicals over millions/billions of years and if so, why?

    ReplyDelete
  9. For one thing, macroevolution doesn't claim to explain the origin of life. That is the subject of a branch of science called ABIOGENESIS. Macroevolution only describes what happened afterwards. For another, your assertion that it is so unlikely for matter to arrange itself into living organisms is based on the wrong model of how it would have happened. Most such assertions assume that life formed as fully functioning bacterial cells, and evolved from there. I agree, that if thats how its supposed to have happened, the chances are so close to zero they might as well be impossible. But what is believed to have happened is both much more simple, and more complex. It is more simple in that the beginning of life required much more simple entities to come into being than a fully formed bacterial cell. All that is needed for the process to begin is a few self-replicating molecules. It is more complex in that the process from inanimate chemicals to living cells took many intermediate steps, each of which is not only likely, but almost inevitable, given the correct conditions.

    ReplyDelete
  10. @tony
    do we have verifiable proof of the existence of these entities that are much more simple than bacterial cells? (i don't claim to even know if bacterial cells are the smallest kinds known) also, is there evidence of this process ever happening, like has this event been recreated? or does what we think the Earth was like billions of years ago (if the Earth *is* that old) the "correct conditions" for this process to happen? If all that is needed is the self-replicating molecules, where did those molecules come from?

    To me, it doesn't matter if the theory of evolution states we came from bacteria or something smaller. There still isn't proof that animals evolved into new animals.

    So then let me reword my question to you (and others). Do you believe that humans and all the other animals you see today evolved over millions/billions of years, starting out as tiny organisms and changing into new creatures over time? If so, why?

    ReplyDelete
  11. So evolution is not a good answer for our existence. To be honest with you though, I would rather believe something like that (evolution) which is hard to study because of the "we can't go into the past without our handy dandy time-machine to study it fully" fact than the easy way of falling into the ranks of a bedtime story made up by people a long time ago. The bible is just a story that tells people to behave themselves and respect others. That I have no problem agreeing with, but then it also asks one to submit and devote themselves to this god. Why does one have to give their life to one person just to be a decent human being?

    I think religion is good in the fact that it keeps people from running up to me and punching me in the face on the street. But as to something I believe in as a true story, I am not accepting it.

    I think this article really did nothing more to me than become more anti-religion. I don't care where I came from, I am here now and will be until I die. Why do we have to argue about trivial things such as differences in opinions? If I came from a monkey: cool. If I came from a big guy who now hates me for not believing in him: all right. I am still going to live life as being a decent person based on my moral judgments and not what a church or a scientist says. I will be happy while I am here and worry about everything else when I die.

    I don't know how you can post something like this and get mad about people trying to attack the religious aspect. It was clearly written because of your religious views. Good luck on proving that god exists though.

    ReplyDelete
  12. I think the post makes some good points. I am, for one, a believer in evolution who finds the idea of God to be ludicrous and petty, so I see why you're saying that evolution is a way to avoid the question of origin and direction.

    As for evolution being a philosophy, also a good point.

    What I'm trying to say is that your argument against evolution makes sense and is fairly sound, but the fact that you put religion as the alternative is pretty ridiculous.

    When you say "if you tell a lie often enough, eventually people will start to believe and accept it," it more than anything describes religion than it does evolution.

    A girl gets pregnant with a bastard at a time where she could have been killed for that. She panics and makes up some story about some Angel visiting her and impregnating her with the son of God. She gets some good support.
    The story continues for thousands of years, and it goes from being ludicrous to a belief system for the majority of the world.

    First off, chill, it's a theory [with some merit in its roots, i think]. Secondly, my point is that the same thing you use against evolutoin can be used for religion.

    I respect your argument about evolution on its own, but not with something that has even a smaller logical basis. Religion is more convenient to choose in this situation because so much of it is based on the unknown, intangible, blind faith, and not being worthy. And those are things that I choose not to accept, so essentially: yes, evolution is very well a philosophy, but it's one that makes a whole lot more sense to me than Big Man in the Sky.

    ReplyDelete
  13. @everyone
    i haven't gotten mad or "upset" with anybody in these posts. mad is capital letters. i love when i get home and hop on the computer to find new posts here, the discussion is great!

    @anonymous
    i would rather not believe in a theory proven to be incorrect. Darwinian evolution is wrong, and unless a better, more refined, and provable theory is given, there's no reason for anybody to believe in it if they base their beliefs on factual evidence. you said you would live your life "...being a decent person based on my moral judgments..." where does your morality come from? your idea of wrong or right? decent or indecent? if you say, "society" then where did society get these morals from, where is the root of all of them? that's another post i'll have to do, i should make a list. i know this was clearly written because of my religious views, i don't deny it. i don't think many that didn't hold a view opposing what evolution presents would have looked into the validity of evolutionary theory and revealed it to be wrong. it's the opposition that shows the flaws, not often the members. the Bible is not just a story, and this topic is one of two things i'm deciding between for another topic to post. once you die, there's nothing more to worry about, your further existence will already have been decided by how you chose to live. but of course you don't believe that :)

    ReplyDelete
  14. @nedal
    please don't think that I'm calling evolution a philosophy. it's a scientific theory, and one that is disproven. on what grounds do you believe in evolution? only because it seems to make more sense to you than religion?

    you are discrediting the validity of the entire Bible(foundation of modern Christianity) based on an assumption that the virgin birth is a false story. it's not like the Bible started from that point and progressed. that is one event in the Bible out of thousands. Granted, this event is essential to Christianity, it's not so much to say, Judaism.

    I would agree that most "religion" is based on unknown and intangible things, but this is not the case with Christianity. blind faith is perfectly acceptable within the Christian religion, because you do not have to understand every aspect of it to believe in it. to properly defend the religion to most though, you cannot use "faith" as an answer to everything because most people will just laugh at it. I understand this, and that's why I'm putting such an emphasis on fact and evidence.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Needless to say, your bold claim on myspace that evolution is hair-brained lie (my views aside) caught my curious eye, so I came to take a look. First, I'd like to give you a high five for taking the time to do the research and present your argument in a professional manor instead of going off on a angry tangent about why it's wrong with no backing whatsoever.

    I think the best way to start off what I've got to say is that for the first time in my life, I have a biology teacher who is open minded. The thing that hit me most is not what he said, however, but what the person sitting next to me said just after...she said she couldn't stand it when teachers told the students humans came from monkeys (like he had)...when he'd clearly just said that anyone who said anything of the sort is clearly uneducated, but there was a possibility of a common ancestor. My point is that people are close minded, and choose to believe what they want to believe.

    Before people will contemplate the complex mysteries of the universe, people have to be open minded. I know that wasn't the intention of your writings, but just some food for thought.

    I learned it the hard way when I wrote a paper on why there shouldn't be a death sentence. It changed no ones mind who read it, and even though I had terribly good points...they were too consumed with the fact that they were right, and with what they wanted to tell me when they finished reading it about how I was wrong.

    From (most of) the comments you've gotten...you've obviously gotten a similar response. I don't know how to teach people to be more open minded...but if I ever find a way, I'll let you know. :)

    Now...on to what I thought about your blog (which I think is what you were actually looking to hear about from people...lol). I do not think evolution is a fact. It is a theory, and rightly dubbed, the theory of evolution. People should not treat theories as fact. That is what scientific laws are for, and people who treat theories as law are uninformed about how science labels their vast ocean of knowledge. You said many times that anyone who takes evolution as a fact is mistaken - and you're entirely right...but it has nothing to do with evolution, and much more to do with a lack of knowledge as a whole.

    Also, from what compact knowledge I have about persuasion, I think you may have underused your resources. To truly make a good argument (instead of an attack) you have to do your best to see things from the opposing view and then make an argument as to why that particular view is not valid. You did well with getting sources, giving solid statistics, and showing some of the major flaws of evolution.

    Next time you make an argument though, keep in mind they will not listen unless you address their points outright. (I know that's insanely hard considering the vast gaping whole (aka lack of complete knowledge of the subject scientifically) unlike other opinion arguments which have solid backing for either side. But I thought it was worth mentioning.)

    Regardless, this is becoming way too long of a comment (I blame that entirely on the drunks downstairs, making tons of noise so I can't sleep :D), so I'll say only one more thing. People have very different opinions on some things because they can't truly be proven right or wrong. I commend your effort to get people to think about your point of view. But both sides require some amount of faith...and faith is a beautiful thing. :)

    PS - if my long rambunctious comment inspires some form of a response, leave it on myspace because I won't come back here to check. :) Thanks for writing this. It made my night interesting.

    ReplyDelete
  16. You're right, that was poor wording/oversight on my part.

    I was looking at this part of your entry that stuck out the most:

    The reason many hold so tight to evolution is not based on scientific fact, it's based on something philosophical. Phillip E. Johnson has written a lot about this, and he observes that "the doctrine that some known process of evolution turned a protozoan into a human is a philosophical assumption, not something that can be confirmed by experiment or by historical studies of the fossil record."(3) An evolutionist has already closed themselves to any possibility that an outside super intelligent force was the cause of the origin of humans. This is not a scientific move, this is philosophical.


    You say that evolution is driven by a philosophical belief, while Johnson, whom you have chosen to cite, says it is a philosophy. what he says made sense to me, and since you cited it, I took it as part of your argument. And a logical part of that. I see what you're saying about it being DRIVEN by a philosphical belief [as opposed to what Johnson said, and I somewhat agree with]. An incredible amount of science starts out as a theory or philosophy based on observations [in this case, special adaptations by species, variations, and muttions] and is THEN test practically through experimentations and research [here: fossil digs, biology, etc.] I wouldn't think that the study of evolution was set out to discredit God by a group of athiests. It was just another scientific study, but unlike a lot of others that have just translated into widely-accepted textbook science, it was one that contradicted existing belief systems. And even if it was a science driven by the rejection of God, it makes a lot of sense.

    In your argument against evolution, you tackle a lot of the smaller flaws with the theory, but the fact is, overall, it's logical and has a lot more of a concrete basis behind it than divine creation. Divine creation seems more sound to you because it's really just a vague picture, and if there are no facts to be nit-picky about, it's hard to discredit it.

    ReplyDelete
  17. @nedal
    there are facts to Christianity (the Bible, which modern Christianity is based on) and I will be making a post about it. i don't know when, but that's what I'm going to do next.

    I didn't take Phillip Johnson's words to be labeling evolutionary theory a philosophy. i really think he meant "philosophical assumption" to mean "an assumption based on philosophy." in that sense, it agrees with what I've been saying just fine. the philosophy is "there is no God or supernatural power" and so the assumption is "evolution must have occured." to my knowledge, this is the only scientific/biological theory that has held any merit in showing where humans and animals came from. and it's been disproved.

    science and philosophy are two different things. science and "the church"(philosophy) used to go hand in hand, but that's not the case any more, and I believe most (if not all) who reject religion would agree that they should be separate. science is concerned with facts and proof. if the proof and evidence is not present, the truly scientific (factual) person would not believe in whatever it is that is lacking confirmation.

    please show me the concrete basis behind evolutionary theory. backing up your argument with facts and evidence is a must. if you want me to present my facts for Christianity first, then you'll have to wait until I can get around to making another blog post (could be weeks), but I would like to hear what you have to say. logic is a very powerful tool, but logic cannot refute factual evidence.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Recently there was a video I watched that showed proof that we share the same dna markers as chipanzees in such places to show we shared a common ancestor at some point. Putting aside the idea we evolve from single cell organisms, what would you say if I threw it out there that we were more monkey like at one point when god created us? I said this to a pastor at the church I used to go to and he was pretty open minded about it and said it could be true, he couldn't prove otherwise but since we were created in god's image he didn't want to think god was a monkey. My mom told me I'd go to hell for saying that, lol. In any case if you watch the video it'll explain it a lot better than I can. I don't pretend to understand dna but I know they can trace who someone's parents or ancestors are with it and it has been proven, so why would be it be suddenly called into question when someone proves we had a common ancestor with apes? You claim that it would take a 1 in a billion chance to become what we are today. I agree completely, the odds are very low. What you don't put into the equation, however, is that we didn't have to become this. We just as easily could have ended up with 3 eyes, 60 toes, whatever. This is the genetic string that happened to work. Any other number of types could have worked. If you roll a die and you are #2 and say you only have a 1 in 6 chance of hitting that number you ignore that 1, 3, 4, 5, 6 all could work for us to evolve too we'd just look different.

    ReplyDelete
  19. I'll chime in. I'll start by saying that you didn't properly research evolution and have misinterpreted facts.

    Most importantly, your idea that scientists don't agree on one theory isn't a valid argument against evolution. Those three scientists do NOT contradict each other on the fact that evolution DID take place. They may at times slightly contradict the exact process of evolution, but that doesn't change the FACT that evolution took place. Even their theories of how it took place agree on almost all levels.

    Furthermore, the Bible cannot be used as evidence for Christianity. For start, very little in the Bible is fact. The history, geography, and names do not add up. The Bible isn't meant to be taken literally, even the most devout Christians will explain to you the fallacy of the Bible.

    I'd like to go through and pick apart your argument against evolution, but until you fully understand it, inside and out, you cannot judge properly whether or not it's 'bunk'.

    ReplyDelete
  20. I decided to go into a little more detail,

    "First of all I'd like to point out that most people are not Atheistic. This means that most people do not believe that everything evolved on it's own with no outside intelligent influence. How many is most? Well, only 12% of Americans believe that human beings evolved over millions of years with nothing like God in the picture.(1)"

    Whether or not this is true does not support whether or no evolution took place. And anyways, the nonreligious/secular group has grown by 110% over the past 100 years whereas the Christian group has only grown by 5%. Furthermore, a considerable percentage of Christians do, in fact, understand that evolution took place. There is no law that states a religious person must deny that humans evolved.

    http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#religions

    "I'm sure everybody is familiar with being lied to. It's something that happens far too often. So you'll probably understand the saying that goes something like, "if you tell a lie often enough, eventually people will start to believe and accept it." This is precisely what has happened with evolution. And who are the ones telling us that evolution is fact? Well, it's the ones who we should be able to trust and believe about things like this, the scientists. Why would they do that though? A survey done in 1998 of "elite scientists... those who have been elected to the National Academy of Sciences.... [shows that] disbelief in supernatural theism among Academy members was over 90 percent, for biologists it was 95 percent." (2) This says that a huge percentage of the most influential scientists and biologists reject the thought of a supernatural intelligence as the guiding force behind the universe. Their philosophical beliefs tell them that life cannot have come from a Creator, so they cling to something else even when the evidence shows otherwise."

    This makes no sense whatsoever. Do you honestly think that because a scientist is not religious their research is biased? It's the other way around, they're not religious because of what the evidence shows them. By your method of thinking, because 99.9% of Christians believe in God, we can't trust what they say about the after life. You're doing exactly what it is you speak so vehemently against, making claims without evidence. It's your interpretation, nothing more.

    "Evolutionists can't agree on one theory of evolution. Let's look at three top theories. First, Richard Dawkins of Cambridge University in England believes that evolution happened over a long period of time with random mutations in DNA and natural selection guiding things. The mutations in DNA are good for the organism and after so many lucky DNA changes, it becomes a new organism that's different from it's now extinct ancestors. This happens over millions of years with millions of genetic mutations. This is probably the most well known theory.
    Steven Jay Gould of Harvard (now deceased) proposed that evolution happened very rapidly at times, and then did nothing for long periods. He did not take up the slow gradual process theory because he knew that the fossil records don't support it.
    Frances Crick, a Nobel Prize winner (also deceased) had another theory. He knew that life could not just happen out of non-life (called abiogenesis) and so he thought that something from outer space came to earth and left something that seeded the beginning of evolution. This could have been something like space aliens that left bacteria behind on a visit to Earth."

    Your idea that scientists don't agree on one theory isn't a valid argument against evolution. Those three scientists do NOT contradict each other on the fact that evolution DID take place. They may at times slightly contradict the exact process of evolution, but that doesn't change the FACT that evolution took place. Even their theories of how it took place agree on almost all levels.

    How can you presume to present anything about evolution without observing and presenting what it is from the original founder? You displayed 3 theories of how evolution may have occurred, but in no way does that say evolution did not occur. I could tell you that I think evolution took place by way of aliens altering our DNA every so often, but that doesn't change the fact that it took place.

    "Evolution is a popular term, but the brightest of its defenders can't agree on how it works. The reason many hold so tight to evolution is not based on scientific fact, it's based on something philosophical. Phillip E. Johnson has written a lot about this, and he observes that "the doctrine that some known process of evolution turned a protozoan into a human is a philosophical assumption, not something that can be confirmed by experiment or by historical studies of the fossil record."(3) An evolutionist has already closed themselves to any possibility that an outside super intelligent force was the cause of the origin of humans. This is not a scientific move, this is philosophical. Phillip Johnson wrote in another piece:
    "Darwinists know that the mutation-selection mechanism can produce wings, eyes, and brains not because the mechanism can be observed to do anything of the kind, but because their guiding philosophy assures them that no other power is available to do the job. The absence from the cosmos of any Creator is therefore the essential starting point for Darwinism....As an explanation for how complex organism came into existence in the first place, it is pure philosophy."(4)"

    This is poor, narrow research and I won't bother addressing it until you properly formulate what the difference between philosophy, fact, and theory are and what evolution is by the standards of the scientific community.

    Your piece about where everything came from is another example of narrow research. I think someone else in your comments already mentioned your errors in argument so I won't bother addressing it again. This also has nothing to do with evolution.

    Your presentation on cell theory in no way 'debunks' evolution. Again, your claims about fossils are a matter of poor research.

    Your entire piece is based off of mostly 3 resources by one author who, quite obviously, is extremely biased in that he does not support evolution. Your paper is full of your own tunnel-visioned interpretations and lack of respect for the scientific community and 150 years of research. All you've done is provide a bunch of ramblings about possible, minor errors in the process of evolution. Nothing you present debunks whether or not evolution took place and because of your poor research and improper presentation of the subject I must remove your link from my own post.

    You're going up against thousands of scientists, overwhelming evidence, and pure logic-- come up with something a little more solid please.

    ReplyDelete
  21. One last note to everyone on micro/macro evolution,

    Creationists can't escape from the facts of evolution so they created a straw man split. This entailed coining the phrases microevolution and macroevolution. This allowed then to claim that microevolution happened all the time and was part of God's plan. But you never see a new species appear do you? So macroevolution (real evolution) is a lie.

    Straw man = A man made of straw would be easier to knock down that a real man. So the creationists build an easier argument microevolution + macroevolution, which is easier to knock down than evolution.

    Coin a phrease.

    ReplyDelete