A statement and then a question.
Belief in a higher power (i.e. gods) exists in literally all areas of the world and in every culture. It's a human nature kind of thing. Is an atheist then somebody who takes on state of lesser humanity, making them less human?
(no, i'm not trying to say atheists are monsters/aliens/etc.)
9 months ago
I think a better question is why does man need to create gods to explain things we do not understand. Primitive man believed earthquakes were the anger of the Gods, etc. At one point everyone was convinced the world was flat and we were the center of the universe, simply because the majority believes something does not make it a truth, it simply makes it a commonly accepted lie.
ReplyDeleteIf you pray to god for something there are 3 answers you can get: yes, no, and wait. By this logic prayer is always answered in some way.
For example: Josh prayed to the jug of milk for money to pay for classes. Lo and behold he got a check for $1,000 in the mail the other day. The jug of milk obviously answered his prayers. Meanwhile I prayed for money as well. I received none. Why? Well the jug of milk must know what is best and have a plan, I must wait patiently for the jug to answer my prayer. Its infallible.
That maybe a bit off your original topic but its true none the less. Why do we have to have idols? Some people believe truly that if they did not believe in god they would kill, rape, steal, etc. Maybe they would. Perhaps that belief is all that keeps them a good person. People of more cognitive power know they don't need some super power looking over their shoulder to keep them good. Same thing with Santa...he's always watching knows if you've been bad or good...you believed in him as a kid most likely but now you know he's fake. Why is that? You never had proof he's fake or he's real. You just realized it was kind of silly. Why do you not come to the same conclusions with a magical being that presides over everything? Why don't you believe in Zeus or the jug of milk instead?
Tell me.
Well, you've answered the question of "unanswered" prayer yourself there.
ReplyDeleteI don't know if your example with Josh really happened or not. If it did, I wonder why Josh hasn't started to worship the jug of milk. And then your answer from the jug was probably no, seeing as you received no money.
You did answer the question I was trying to get at in my post. You clearly state that people who don't believe in a higher power are superior to those who do.
God doesn't keep you or force you to be "good." You make your own decisions on what to do, and if you base your decisions on what God wants for you, then yes, it will end up good. If you're making on honest effort to be good and pleasing to God, you'll be given the tools necessary to do so.
Why do I not believe in any of the gods thought up by man? It's simple. There's no proof for them.
So why do I believe in God, as well as Jesus Christ's death and resurrection? Without going into the factual aspects of it, (which I'll be doing when I get around to making a bigger post again) I believe because I see the evidence of His existence in my life.
I've been a Christian since I was pretty young. I've never had any traumatic experiences or a troubled childhood. My life is and always has been great and full of blessings. Every need I've ever had has been taken care of. I don't need to worry about the things I need (that's *need* not want) in life because it's always been provided to me. I've got things the Bible promised will be mine if I have faith and follow Jesus. It's a beautiful thing, loving life and living without being dragged down by worry or regret. Living is a joy.
But things like that mean nothing to some people, especially if they haven't experienced it themselves. That's why I'm taking up the side of fact and evidence to show you. You guys are the reason I'm doing this, because if I don't tell you, who else will?
You say fact and evidence, but there is no evidence of *your* god. Lets say there is one, there is no proof the Christian god is correct. I'm sure you know that many aspects of the bible stories and holidays parallel much older religions that assimilated into Christianity. The aztec sun god had a similar death and resurrection as jesus and that story dates farther back. There isn't anything that makes christianity superior to any other religion, its just the largest. Democrats may be the majority on capital hill but it doesn't make them right it just means they feel they are right.
ReplyDeleteYou say your life is great because of god, what of those who have terrible lives and die horribly? If they are chrstians and presumably believe as much as you why is there life not blessed? You can say God's will but that's a cop out, I could say its the jug of milks will...and speaking of which that story with josh DID happen just recently.
What makes the god you grew up worshiping superior? You could have just as likely been muslim or jewish or any other number of religions and you would chalk up your good life to allah or whoever. You are working on presumptions that should be questioned. Blind faith simply makes you blind to whats around you it doesn't make you a better person. I see religion as a tool to control and keep people in line, like mothers scare kids with the boogie man. It works, and it does a good job of keeping those who need it in line. Look up parallels to the bible from other religions, look up how christianity changed to accomidate the heathens and their religions. It seems ludicrous to me to put faith in that because I don't see how its any better or any different than my jug of milk or the flying spaghetti monster. Tell me jarrod.
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, and certain of what we do not see."
ReplyDeleteTony,
Two years ago my epilepsy got so bad that I was having a minimum of 20 or 30 seizures a day. Medications weren't working, and I was in constant danger of hurting myself physically. Needless to say, I was pretty angry with God. Like Jarrod, I have been a Christian for most of my life, and I didn't understand why a god who was supposed to love me, and whom I had served for so long could allow such a terrible disease to take over my life. I really started to doubt God.
Nothing the doctors could do seemed to be working, and they were even talking about doing brain surgery to stop the seizures. My family and I decided to go to my church and have the pastor and elders pray over me. When we went, they all laid hands on me and asked God to take away my epilepsy, and guess what? I stopped having seizures that day.
Tell me, how could that have happened if God does not exist? Those seizures were real. They were recorded by EEG machines and witnessed by many people.
Life is not always perfect for those who follow Christ... trust me... there are tough days. But, He cares about those who love him. And, even when He does not give us the comfort of perfect lives, he gives us the comfort of perfect love - and the joy that comes from that. What separates God from the milk jug or the flying spaghetti monster is love. Plain and simple.
I don't know if any of this makes any sense to you, but I just felt like I needed to get that out there. I know that no amount of arguing will ever change your heart. Only God can do that. But, I pray that He will show himself to you.
@tony
ReplyDeleteThere really is evidence of my God. Like I keep telling you, once I get the time, I'm going to go through some things that present an excellent case for the truth of God, Jesus Christ, and the Bible.
As for Christianity being alike to some myths, I have this to say. The Gospels(in the Bible) are what tells of Jesus' life, death and resurrection. The Gospels are written from eyewitness accounts.
"The style of the Gospels is not the style of myth, but that of real, though unscientific, eyewitness description. Anyone sensitive to literary styles can compare the Gospels to any of the mythic religious literature of the time, and the differences will appear remarkable and unmistakable."(1)
"It is at this point that the wisdom of C.S. Lewis--who actually knew something about myths--must be acknowledged. Lewis realized that the New Testament accounts of the resurrection of Jesus bore no relation to real mythology, despite the claims of the theologians who had dabbled in the field. Perhaps the most important, however, was his realization that the gnostic redeemer myths--which New Testament writers allegedly took over and applied to Jesus-- [are] dated...later than the New Testament itself."(2)
C.S. Lewis was born and raised in a church family, became an atheist at age 13, and stayed atheist until he was 31 when he turned to Christianity. He's one of the greatest Christian writers there ever was. He knew the difference between the fantasy of myths and the reality of what is in the Bible. I wonder if you yourself have looked up these "parallels" of Christianity to pagan myths, because if you had, you would have discovered that no ancient religious texts talk of the death and resurrection of their gods unless those texts are dated after the New Testament was written. With the success of Christianity, it's no surprise that other religions would try to copy the concept.
So then what about people whose lives are tragic and painful? I think Emily touched on that pretty well but I've got more to say. First of all, as a Christian with strong faith, the trials in life are not to pull you down and make you despair. A Christian knows that God does not abandon them as long as they rely on Him. Even through the worst of life's experiences, your Creator is always with you. What could be more joyous then that? Trials are a joy to the faithful, because it produces more faith. You said you've read the Bible cover to cover, go back to the book of Job and see what he went through, and how things ended up for him.
Also, death is nothing to a Christian. Death is not something to be feared, it was conquered by our savior. Death on Earth is the beginning of life in Heaven.
The God I grew up worshiping is superior because He is real, and He did create the world, and He did die and rise again. If I was raised Muslim or Jewish, my life would not be the same as it is now. Those two religions are ones that are "almost" right. What is wrong is their stance on Jesus. They don't believe He is the way to Heaven, when it's clearly stated in Acts 4:12 "there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved" This critical point is the difference between salvation and death.
And by the way, about the Christians who "believe as much as" me; have you talked to them and have they told you that their life is not blessed? I'm curious about where you got this idea. Maybe your idea of a blessed life and the Christian idea of a blessed life are different. I don't know any faithful Christian who would tell you they are not blessed in their life.
Christianity isn't blind faith. Blind faith is perfectly acceptable within Christianity, but that's not where it ends. There is truth and fact in it all. I'm going to show you the truth in these things. I'm of the opinion that somebody who honestly does not want to believe will always find some way to not believe. All I can do is present you with the information and see what happens.
And if you have no religion, what keeps you "in line?"
What keeps me in line? boundaries of society keep me in line, there are consequences for actions and some I dislike enough to not do those things. Look at lord of the flies. If there is no structure what people can become.
ReplyDeleteTo quote the bible and show me the book of Job doesn't do much good when you speak to someone who that book has no relevance toward. I could point to passages in the morman bible but you wouldn't care because you know that god did not hide some mysterious extra books of the bible in north America. Its truly a silly religion you should read about it if you haven't by the way :).
In any case, as to Emily, I am glad to hear that you are better now but I think to point to god and say he did it is a stretch. In your case it may seem so, but think about the other billions of people in the world, how many of them do you think had similar circumstances and prayed and had others pray and nothing happened? They may point to god and say he did nothing and is not there. To say that in one instance prayer appeared to work does not make it legitimate. It could be a strong plecibo effect as well, which has been documented very well if you do research it. You say what seperates god from a jug of milk is love but that is based on assumptions as well. Has god walked up to you and said I love you? No? Well neither has my jug of milk. So 1 for 1 there. How about through prayer? You prayed and something happened so god must be there right? Those times he did not answer he knew what was best for you and thats why he said no right? Well I have the same responses from my jug of milk. People will see what they want to see to fit what they have built as reality. There *could* be a god. I won't deny that. I am saying though that it seems unlikely, and even if so there is no proof one religion is better than another. At one time Christianity was blasphemy to other religions at the time. What makes this any different than a Christian saying that Muslims are wrong now? Nothing. Perspective is very powerful and unless you try to look from other people's point of view everyone just assumes they are correct. (sorry this was so long! haha)
@ tony
ReplyDeleteok, boundaries of society keep you in line. how did society come up with these boundaries? it probably wasn't society in general, but a select few that decided right? like when the constitution was made. they probably based it on what they thought was "good." the word "good" is interesting. where did the concept of good come from? how do you define the word "good" in terms of morality?
i used the book of job because it's a common ground, you and I both know it. i was showing you where to find the Christian view on trials and suffering. it doesn't matter if you don't believe it, i'm telling you where to see my point of view. i quoted from the Bible to show you the difference between Christianity and the two "similar" religions of Judaism and Islam. I'm showing you were my beliefs come from.
the morman bible is a joke. it was written by a man and a man alone, with no divine inspiration. there are so many proven falsehoods in that book that it's ridiculous. historically, it's very inaccurate and a lot of times downright wrong.
that's not the case with the Christian Bible though, which is the most historically accurate book from antiquity.
about emily. you asked how many people prayed and didn't receive anything, but do you know how many people prayed and did receive? neither of us know, we can only guess. you can't even make an educated guess. i know you're a big fan of the whole "God should heal the amputees" thing. does anybody who prays for God to restore their lost limb actually truly and faithfully believe that He will? i can't say that I know the answer to that, but neither can you. When Jesus healed people in the Bible, more than once he said something to the effect of "your faith has healed you." you can't pray to God for something and then in your heart be thinking, "but I doubt that will ever happen." that's action without faith, which is worthless. faith and action must go together.
saying that love is what separates God from the milk jug is not an assumption. The love of God is demonstrated in the Bible and in our lives. The love of the jug of milk... well, where do you think the proof of it's love is? if you even think it has any. And even if it does have love, what power does it have to demonstrate it? God has shown his love to us.
what can you say your jug of milk has done for you? what difference does he make in your life? what solutions does he offer to life's problems? what explanations does he give for issues such as the origin of life or the concepts of good and evil?
to say Christianity "was" blasphemy to other religions is half-true. isn't every religion blasphemous to every other religion at any time period? every religion says other religions are wrong by saying that their own view is right. it doesn't matter who says who is wrong. what ultimately matters is who is right, and can they show it?
i think i can show it. give me time. and feel free to respond to any of the questions i asked.
Well to answer your questions:
ReplyDelete"what ultimately matters is who is right, and can they show it?"
No one can. That's my point. You can believe 100% you are correct and have all the faith in the world, but I am willing to bet for every religion there is someone equally as fervent.
"what can you say your jug of milk has done for you? what difference does he make in your life?"
Once again, it has made no changes. Just like prayer. I am a fan of the site http://godisimaginary.com/. In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.
http://www.livescience.com/
strangenews/ap_060330_prayer.html
my source.
Ok, so "saying that love is what separates God from the milk jug is not an assumption. The love of God is demonstrated in the Bible and in our lives."
The first proof of yours, that it is demonstrated in the bible is irrelevant. This is because you are acting on the assumption the book is 100% fact which has not been proven yet. I could write a book about my life and say how much I love Emo but in the end the reality is I do not. Anyone who reads the book will assume I love Emo but those who know me personally will be the only ones who know the truth. How can we know that the bible is completely true? It may have historical accuracies but that doesn't make people walking on water, turning water to wine, or removing a legion of demons from someone are true.
For your second one, God's work in your life. How do you know Allah isn't watching out for you this whole time instead? Lots of good and bad things happen to people through out their life. I would think statistically that at least a few things people wish for come true from time to time. Whether you pray or not has no effect. I would really suggest checking out that video at the site above about the jug of milk. It explains more eloquently than I could and probably more simply.
"When Jesus healed people in the Bible, more than once he said something to the effect of "your faith has healed you." you can't pray to God for something and then in your heart be thinking, "but I doubt that will ever happen." that's action without faith, which is worthless. faith and action must go together."
I would agree with you completely that if pray worked that you would be correct. You would have to believe in it as well of course. I worked on that assumption with what I said.
@tony
ReplyDeleteof course there's fervent believers in religions. being extremely dedicated to something doesn't make it right or true.
about that study on prayer. did you read the headline of the report and just skim to the parts that supported your view?
"Researchers emphasized that their work can't address whether God exists or answers prayers made on another's behalf."
basically in this research, you're testing God and telling Him to prove himself. You've read the Bible, so you know that it is not man's place to put God to the test. it's not something i've made up to rationalize or explain, it's in the Bible, and always has been.
by your argument against the Bible's validity, you are stating that you won't believe in something unless it is proven 100% fact. i doubt this is true, but that's what it seems is your problem with the Bible. the miracles you described were recorded from eyewitness accounts. many miracles were observed by hundreds, even thousands.
you made a bad choice in using Allah as an example for your argument. Allah and my God are the same being. Muslims have it wrong when it comes to Jesus Christ, which is incredibly important. so let's assume you argued on the example of another god instead of Allah. What god is out there that offers to watch out for me whether I believe in it or not, whether I pray to it or not, or whether I sacrifice to it or not? If you can give an example of such a god, then please also show where this god states it's will to do the things described above.
whether purposefully or not, you did not answer my questions about "good," morality, and societies boundaries. you also didn't answer some questions about the jug of milk, but after watching the video, it's obvious you don't actually believe in it so why use it as an argument when neither of us believes it is true? i understand why you use it, but the only thing it can deal with is prayer. a jug of milk is a man made physical object. it made no claims to divinity, therefore there is no reason to believe it is divine at all.
no apologies necessary for length. you gotta say what you gotta say.
Well, I of course don't believe in the divinity of milk, but the point was that it has as much power as any other made up deity. As to societal boundaries, some people will be empathetic and not harm others because they wouldn't want to be treated that way, some people need rules or they will do what they want, still others break them and do what they please regardless. They are just rules in place to keep those in line and give them consequence for their actions.
ReplyDeleteThis, I would assume, was put in place because people would do what they pleased and others didn't like it and over time societies formed. Depending where you live different things are considered rude or a crime. There is no ultimate law from God, although the 10 commandments are pretty good rules to live by.
I have a question though, if god spoke so much way back when why has he been silent now for 2000 some years? Why in the bible does god OK slavery? "and he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised."
Here is a bit from the other site again, " If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbour, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death. The man who lies with his father’s wife has uncovered his father’s nakedness; both of them shall be put to death; their blood is upon them. If a man lies with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall be put to death; they have committed perversion; their blood is upon them. If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them. [Leviticus, chapter 20]
You are not quite sure what to say. You look at me for a moment.
You: I thought you said that this is written by the most intelligent person in the universe. If we are going to follow what this author says, we have to kill half the people in America. We are supposed to kill everyone who has cursed his father or mother, everyone who has committed adultery, and every homosexual.
Me: Well, that's in the old testament, you see. The book is really two books, and the "old" part of the book doesn't really apply.
You: Are you saying that the smartest person in the universe once wanted us to kill every adulterer and homosexual, but then changed his mind? That somehow makes it better? If the "old part" no longer applies, then why did you hand it to me when I asked to see the book? "
That is from http://godisimaginary.com/i5.htm that page.
In case you wanted to see it in context.
As to the article I posted earlier. The findings they had was that there was no proof prayer did anything. Simply by having no proof doesn't mean it is true. If I say I believe in the gargleglop, you'd think I was crazy. If I said I believe in Zeus you'd laugh. If I say I believe in the christian God, why is he different? I think that's enough for now I wrote this over a long course of time while doing other stuff so sorry for the length again, lol.
@tony
ReplyDeletei agree, the jug of milk has as much power as any other made up deity. none.
God isn't made by humans.
I like how you said people would be empathetic and not want to be treated that way. where does a feeling like empathy come from? how about the idea that people should treat others the way they want to be treated? where did we get the idea that there should be consequences for actions? and how to discern the difference between a "good" or "bad" action? interesting.
who says God is silent now? do you mean why hasn't another Bible come out recording everything God has said to other people since the last Bible was written? I'm pretty sure God said everything He needed to say for Christians in the Bible. That doesn't mean God can't use other things to show people his will though.
Slavery was not the same as it was in the U.S. back in the day. In America's day, people were basically kidnapped and brought overseas to be sold for profit. In Deut 15:12 and Ex 21:2 there is the command to set slaves free after six years of servitude. slavery in the U.S. was based on race alone, this is not so in the Bible. they were dealt with very different.
The argument you used from that website, about punishment for sin, is a great example of not understanding the whole picture because things were taken out of context. Reading the whole of chapter 20 in Leviticus gives more insight. God wanted his people to live separately and differently from the other nations.
Lev 20:23 "You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them. (24) But I said to you, 'You will possess their land; I will give it to you as an inheritance, a land flowing with milk and honey.' I am the Lord your God, who has set you apart from the nations."
The ones who did these things were poison to what God wanted for his people. They would corrupt the nation He was setting apart from the others. Eventually the nation *was* corrupted and destroyed, and then redeemed. So is the story of God's people, falls and redemption.
Some of the commands make good biological sense. Having sex with your relatives is a bad idea, recessive genes will leave you with poor offspring.
If you fully understood the exact reason and good sense behind every command given by God, then there would be no faith involved. Actions without faith are worthless, as is stated in the Bible. You would be doing things simply because it made sense to, not because you were trusting in God.
The Old Testament is very important, but you need to take the Bible as a whole into consideration. Some things were changed by Jesus in the New Testament and it's important to see why. John 8:1-11 is a great example of how Jesus dealt with a rule from the Old Testament. A woman who had been caught in adultery was brought before Jesus and the teachers of the law reminded Him that she must be stoned due to the old laws. Jesus said "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." eventually everybody walked away until it was just the woman and Jesus there. He asked her "Has no one condemned you?" she replied "No one, sir." and Jesus responded with "The neither do I condemn you. Go now and leave your life of sin."
Jesus does not call judgment down on this woman, he goes against the old law. Jesus is God, and since the law was from God, God alone has the authority to change it.
In the example from the site, a person picks up the Bible, reads a bit, comes to an issue, and then stops without going on to find out more. Would you do this reading any other book? Read the first bit of plot, come to a tough issue in the plot, then stop reading the book instead of continuing to see the solution to the problem. It doesn't make much sense does it?
In regards to prayer, it doesn't bother me one bit that science cannot prove or disprove the results of it. Prayer is outside the scope of science. Effects may be physically visible and recordable, but the ultimate cause (God) is beyond physical existence as we are familiar with it.
You raise a *very* important question in the end. What makes God different from all the other gods? A few basic things:
-He claims he is the only God
-He offers a clear plan for salvation, and assures that He will help you with it if you are dedicated
-He gives answers and explanations for the history of the world, the origin of life, human nature, and the meaning of life.
-He loves every person on the face of the earth. (this is undeniable in the fact that he sent Jesus to die so that *everybody* has an opportunity for salvation.
what other god claims these things?
well, you can quick make up a god and say it claims these things, but where is the proof of these claims? you could write a book on it, but it wouldn't be credible.
who can claim the things that God has claimed, and show any evidence in support of their claims? there is a good difference between God and any other god.
oh, and you still didn't answer my question about "goodness" and morality. no comment or are you just thinking about it?